[Magflag12]

I understand that many of you want to keep the game clean and fair, and so do all the mods. They really do, in no way do the mods that are moderatering cheat trades want to ruin this game by allowing cheaters to reign in this game. Please recognize that all mods are doing the best they can to judge each complaint with non-biased opinion.

On another note, I would like all of you to look at what is the most common post on the GM thread. If you look at the thread count at the forum home page you will see that the mode of threads posted are in the "Report Cheaters" section. I understand that we have made this a haven to report unfair play, but we have also been trying to make this a community. Many of us (including me), it seems, have been spending a lot of time in this section reporting and retaliating to accusations and/or decisions we felt were wrong.

I would like to apologize for my long winded threads in the past in this section. I am truly sorry, because it has diverted us from the meaning of the game.

I would like for you all to reconsider next time you think something is a cheat trade. Please look at the following possibilities.

1. Is it possible that you are reporting cheat just because you are upset on how things ended?

2. Did the player REALLY cheat or was it just bad game play?

3. Should we punish a player for a really bad strategy even if it was not intentional?

4. Will questioning mod decisions really fix the problem or just divert people's attention from the community aspect of this game?

5. Is it worth your time, and the community's for that matter, to get a player's 50% point reduction for a game that may have just gone badly?

I don't mean to preach, I really don't. But I do feel that if I had evaluated some of those things above that some of my reactions to these complaints or my own complaints in the past would have been dealt with a lot better or could have been avoided all together.

If you will look at the most recent complaints, you will see that a majority of them have been dealt with in a timely fashion AND have been declared NON-cheats. This is an indicator that either the mods are getting bad on judgement or that the complaints are getting more and more radical. (I believe that the latter is the most likely)
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If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[Bill2k06]

nice thread .

thanks.

i do also believe the latter is employable here, as the mods havent changed, and the judgement is exactly the same,
a number of people (same people) are complaining about certain issues which i do believe they just need to go read the rules again , before contemplating another complaint,

on the complaints, its getting a bit like boy cries wolf with a certain player, (to whom i will not name) but even in this respect ALL complaints are looked at with an unbiased view every time
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[Magflag12]

Side Note:

This is the current list of thread counts (in order from largest amount to smallest amount) for each section.

Report Cheaters--- 9212
Off Topic--- 3816
Announcements--- 3092
Feature Requests--- 2847
For moderators(only mods)--- 1530
General Discussion--- 1450
Bugs--- 1055
Galactic Magnate Strategy--- 955
Help and Support--- 847
Version Updates--- 50

What is most disturbing is these three facts:

Report Cheaters Section accounts for more than 1/3 of the total thread count.

(Counting from the 25 most recent complaints) online 7 of those complaints have been declared cheats or have resulted in punishment. (7/25)

If we use that current ratio above to see how many of the cheat accusations have been accurate (assuming mods were correct) we will see that only 2579.26 have been declared cheats... which means if we removed all threads that were deemed non-cheats the report cheat section would no longer be the most common thread posted on and it would go on to the 'Announcement' section to take the lead... which seems more desirable.
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If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[MrCrabbs]

I might be tiresome dealing with incorrect cheat claims but as long as the rules are applied consistently, players will learn what is and what is not a cheat. If GM is a ship it needs to plot a steady course, with timeless and consistent rules. False cheat accusations may result from inconsistency or ambiguity - one thing mods can do is always be consistent, and always apply Kreso's rules. That is a very fine solution.

I would say that you should not be disheartened by the prominence of cheat trades among the forum posts. The prime function of any society is upholding laws. The best way to reduce the activities of the courts (mods in this case) is for players to be crystal clear in their minds of the rules, so that they do not bother breaking the rules knowing it would be punished.

All that said, some people have good moral compasses and others do not. There will always be some people who cannot see a situation impartially and "cry wolf". Its sad but you encounter these kinds of people in all walks of life.

[Magflag12]

Good words Crabbs. I do agree with you, and I think you have made some great points that we need to take into mind.

I don't mean to raise heat and/or argument or anything, but I do have to say that I am hesitant on your 'piggy' type mindset on this community (I am referencing to Lord of the Flies and I don't mean that in a negative way at all).

The primary function of a society is not to uphold laws, in my opinion. I believe that any any society's main function is to simply exist and to exist in a way that benefits the members of that society whether it be a 'narrow' society or a more 'broad' society, with that we see that the primary function is to exist and to be a positive in the world for those who are a part of it. In that context, it is obviously essential that laws be upheld consistently so that the members of a particular society are benefitted BECAUSE that society exists. However upholding the law is not the only importance for a society.

Crabbs, I see where you were and are going with your point, but I want you to consider this food for thought. Perhaps when we claim something has such a narrow function such as "to uphold law" then it is importnat that that subject which receives the claim be narrow as well. Society is a broad term, and therefore deserves a broad main function that includes many important functions with in that function. So, I think that in this case, we can say that it is more fair to say that upholding law serves as a main function for a Government or perhaps even more narrowly a justice system. If we say that mods are the government and/or the justice system, then we can say that a mods main function is to uphold the law. I think that is where your words hold the most value, and ring so so true.


I would like to close with agreeing with crabbs in the sense of government and authority (mods) and that it is important for mods to be consistent. That is noted with humility, thank your Crabbs. With that, we see that the mods responsibility is heavy, but to share the burden of weight I must shift a few pounds (or Kilograms) over to the non-mods. Society can exist with out government, it is theoretical and extremely rare and 99.9% will never work, but if it were to work it would be because the members of society were sacrificial, and moreso, considerate of what is best for the members as a WHOLE. Confuscianism is an example this possibility, of course in the past any confuscianist society had a Government because of the importance of some sort of authority expressed with in the idealogy of Confuscianism, but we see that the main merits fof confuscianism is not really in authority, but with in being part of a community and being willing to sacrifice for its very sake of existence in some way. So, that being said I will give responsibility to everyone as a whole to take that mindset of doing what is best for society or community as a whole. When reporting you should take into consideration the 5 points I made above, because if it is worth complaining after seriously considering the 5 points then it is clear it will benefit society (as law is upheld) and if it is not worth complaining we will see that only negatives will be seen by doing so.

That was my point in all of this.

Thank you crabbs for pointing out the responsibility of modship, and I hope you can see the uniqually equal responsibility of being a simple member of this community.
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[Yiles]

$100 to whomever made it through Magflag's entire last post without their eyes blurring...


I would suggest paragraph breaks- might be somewhat easier on the rest of us

[MrCrabbs]

Just briefly, societies that function without a system of laws typically do so because interactions between individuals are structuerd in such a way that all relevant punishments/rewards can be carried out at the individual level. This is, for example, where intreractions are repeated so that if you cheat me today I can punish you tomorrow. No need for a court system in this case, perhaps.

Confucianism os not a good example of this sort of anarchical equilibrium, since it preaches the supremacy of the emperor and is thus an example of a law-based or ruler-based society.

I would say that upholding rules and protecting the community from predation is a necessary condition for a society to function - other features of society may be desirable, but few are necessary.

One for the debate thread mayhaps.

[palabra]

sheesh maggy

i am a bit disappointed by the numbers as well, but past is past. no big deal.

i am all for strong GM community... the way we will accomplish this is by being awesome sports in the games that we play, continually reaching out to new players, inviting more people to play, etc.

GM is not problem-free, but its a pretty darn good game.
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if seeing is believing, then believe that we have lost our eyes

[Magflag12]

Crabbs,

The reason I bring confusianism up is to show you that although there is a need for some sort of heirarchy (even in the case of GM) that the purpose and responsbility in regards the survival of a society depend on the individual rather than authority. Even the Anallects of confuscianism itself even alludes to this concept when it talks about the importance of the Peasant accepting his role in society and doing it so that society will survive.

Confuscianism, as I did point out, is not an example of Anarchy by nature and definition, but it is an example of the possibility of Anarchy given that each member of society lives selflessly. I think its easy to say that if no one was selfish and all actions were done to benefit society as a whole that there would be no need to ever have a government. That is what I meant by that comment.

Its extremely rare to be able to name a society that does not adhere to a system of laws of some kind. Even one on the internet adheres to a system of laws (rules). GM does, obviously, for example. I was not saying that society adhering to a system of laws is not important, it is essential given the nature of mankind, but I was saying that the primary function of a society itself is not to adhere to a system of laws. The merit of that statement, in context, is that yes the system of laws that we use to govern cheat trades and other things is very important as it gives us something concrete and visual to guide by as for as 'morality' goes, however if we truly want this society to be at its peak performance we have to think outside of the system of laws (as well as using the system) and focus just as much, if not more, on individual responsibility to think selflessly in regards to the community.

That was the point of my thread, I just wanted people to start reconsidering all of these complaints that have been spreading like wildfire. It is, in my opinion, the responsibility of authority(mods) to maintain a consistent justice system, whereas at the same time the responsibility of non-authority(players) to only use that consistent/inconsistent justice system when the society is being threatened, rather than using the inconsistent/consistent justice system when they are just pissed off about a game and there is not really a cheat issue going on.

I am not trying to debate here, I just don't want you all to misread what I am trying to say.

Palabra I am not sure what you mean by "sheesh", like if it was too long or forward or whatever, but my intentions were good for this.

I brought up the statistics to show you that it is likely that there is something wrong with the way reporting cheats is being handled. It is possible that many players are just confused because the mods have been somewhat inconsistent. I would say that is a contributing factor, but in no way do I deem it possible that inconsistency is 100% to blame for the 7/25 ratio on cheat trades. I think that some of the fault could also lie in members who have been dominant on GM and have been experiencing horrible games and feel the need to get revenge or perhaps are just so mad that they have clouded judgement. After other players see those players reacting to bad games that way, they are likely to follow the same suit.

Crabbs did a great job in pointing out the importance of mods being consistent and dealing with cases case by case and etc. But the point of my thread was to hopefully encourage all players to start thinking before they try to use the already overworked justice system as means for justice on their bad game encounters.

Lastly Palabra, I do understand that the past is past, but what I am trying to create is a movement from a reporting questionable GM strategy/cheat community to a community that it alive and the majority of words that are printed have to do with positive things. That is the future that we all want, and Ghandi put it best when he said "Be the Change you want to see in the world." That goes for me especially, as I am the worst about making a big deal out of things like this (**Hits himself because he just posted a long refute on his own thread)

Sorry Yiles for the long paragraphs, I will try to do better.
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[palabra]

i know your intentions were good, but it was long

and i agree, i want to see change. your writings are good if they encourage other people to help create a better future, and i just thought that the only people that would actually read what you have written are already encouraging a better future. that is what i meant by sheesh.

but its ok. i totally agree with your feelings about the future of GM.
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if seeing is believing, then believe that we have lost our eyes

[Magflag12]

good point... I need to work on shorter messages when trying to change things.
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[MrCrabbs]

Right. Good points, but I would tend to contrast Ghandi's peaceful change with Confucian "know your place" thinking, rather than trying to synthesise opposing ideas.

I share some of your sentiments, and I do agree that players should be considerate in making reports. But I would probably emphasise that mods should feel comfortable enough to explain their decisions, rather than defensive when questioned. Players are usually not attacking mods when they disagree with them.

If we have a culture where disagreement is accepted, then less offense is taken from diverging opinions than if we try to implement a policy of obedience. Rather than being insulted when players disagree, mods should not be surprised. Players should be able to disagree so long as it is respectful, and that respect is mutual. That is a principle I have stood up for since I first joined GM. I am obliged to bring it up since mentioning Confucian idealogy is to me saying players should "know their place". I believe that players are the shared masters of GM, not simple peasants.

Just to reiterate, mods who expect deference and obedience will soon become outraged when they do not receive it. Mods who expect to defend their verdicts and explain them, and where appropriate change them, will be happier mods. And the players too will be happier.

I say all this not because we have an authoritarian bunch of mods at the moment, we do not. I say it because in the history of GM there has been a tendancy from mods to act in this manner, and I warn against it.

Drop a frog in a boiling pot of water and he will jump out, harmed but alive. Put him in a pot of cold water and light a fire under it, and he will boil to death. Liberties are to be defended when threatened, not when they are already gone.

[Yiles]

Hear hear, Crabbs.


Well stated.

[Magflag12]

I agree with what you stated about mods and their need to expect disagreements and such.

Ghandi's Peaceful change with confucian "know your place" thinking does contrast a little. However, we see that the two are not mutually exclusive, I can be a confuscist who desires change from the status quo and wants to do it in a peaceful way such as Ghandi did. Just because you are confuscist doesnt mean you just have to accept everything the way it is, you can certainly advocate for social change.

HOWEVER, you have taken my words out of context. First off, my 'Ghandi's perspective' was entirely seperate from my confuscian point. You seem to not understand that I am essentially (in a way) compartmentalizing two different concepts. From confuscianism we can take the idea of not only accepting a role of responsibility, but doing so for the sake of community. Many people remove that good idea from this community by the actions and attitudes that have towards the game it is often individualistic which is not always bad, but it can hurt a community if it is abused.

On the other hand, my point behind Ghandi was that I needed, along with others, needed to began practicing the very desires we have for change. Hence the quote "Be the change you want to see"... Crabbs... when you saw Ghandi you say the whole "Civil Disobedience" concept and not what I actually wrote. Civil Disobedience is great and I think is the best way to resist oppression, but in no way is it relevant to what I have been saying lol.

Crabbs, again, I must say that I agree with what your saying about mods. However this thread was intended for non-mods to read. I have posted my speil about the whole idea of getting mods to come up with a concise and specific list of rules on a thread so that things will become more consistent. I think that would help a lot of problems.

The issue Crabbs, is not that we disagree, its that we are on different subjects to an agree. I did start this post and it is titled "Suggestion to all reporters of complaints.". I am aware that there are several variables that are causing this whole fiasco of crazed accusations that that modship may be one of them, and I do appreciate you pointing some of them out to me, but the point of the thread was to promote change among the players that are not mods... As for the mods changing, that is equally important, and if you want to post a thread similar to this one I would be behind it 100%.

Get my drift?
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[MrCrabbs]

Yeah I do, the two things of players being more considerate in their cheat claims, and mods not minding disagreement, seem to be complimentary.