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Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:43 pm
Author Message
trace567
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Post subject: Why we are where we are today! Reply with quote

In the last week and a bit there have been a few topics spring up around the forum discussing, and debating the issues of GM - lack of users, lack of updates etc.

Search engines

Today on yahoo search for "play monopoly online" galactic magnate falls all the way to the middle to page 4.

Today on a google search for "play monopoly online" we fall to page 2 (2nd one down)

Virus companies

Some months ago I spotted that my yahoo search engine was flagging GM up as bad. The search results were using mcaffee's site advisor.
Site advisor is a popular programme, and filters search engine results for dangers.
We currently show as having 5 red downloads.
This basically is saying that mcaffee believe GM to contain viruses. This however is completely untrue.

I with Kreso's consent attempted to challenge them, however it was completely useless. They would not alter the rating unless ALL downloads were deleted from the server. Kreso deleted all but the current version. However Kreso told me to not make further contact with them.

AVG 2011 - This also has an inbuilt safe browsing function, of which blocked GM and reported it to be containing spyware. Again this is not the case.
Kreso repackaged the install and released v1.27 to get past this issue. It worked at the time, whether it will continue to work we do not know.

It is only a matter of time before other high profile virus companies flag GM as bad. As time goes by these virus programs become more and more protective filtering things of which are not bad, but they detect something within a programs coding of which is alien to them. Least this is my belief.

New users
It is a direct result of all the above that new user numbers have significantly dropped. Out of every new user many will not stay as they play their first game, see it is not as they imagined and that is it, we never see them again! This has ALWAYS been the case, however with less new users coming on, there is naturally a huge decrease in retained new users.


Old school members

Obviously it is unlikely that people who were here 3 years ago will be here daily now. Life moves on, people grow up, get jobs, get married and having children. So even if they continue to play, chances are a large number have reduced their time here as they simply have too much to do in life now.
This game has always appealed to young adults, 15-25 year olds are common place here. Now people in this age group do grow up and move on.

When older users decide to return they see low users, they see no changes to the game. They see their old buddies are long gone, or rarely show up......so away they go again. Or they come here to moan at numbers! But hello, older users who walked away....each one of them was a user lost! So please don't come here ranting about poor numbers when that didn't bother you the day you decided to leave!

Now to address the various threads about the forum right now.

Cyou (Jarrods) post on Kreso stepping down as Game developer.
This will NEVER happen. For starters I expect Kreso created GM with the help of a program, now these programs do not come cheap. Whoever were to make changes would require access to whatever program to work on it. Well that requires money, and a fair bit of it!
Equally neither myself or Cyndi has any knowledge of computer programming. Sure I would happily try and learn how to use a program, but that doesn't mean I'd succeed!

Ranban post regarding copying GM......

Well to be honest I should be blocking such posts because it is a total violation of Kreso's copyright that you even consider using his forum to steal and copy his game!

But the reality is, even if you manage to get enough people together with knowledge....as with anything there must always be a leader. Someone who takes charge and manages. Do you really believe you can create a copy of GM with a bunch of people from all over the world without any money!

Whilst it is not fact, it is from all I have got to know over time that Kreso does not intend to sell GM. Or directly hand over the rights to it. He will say yes he will sell, but he will not make it easy. He is not a stupid man, he is actually incredibly intelligent. If he wanted to sell GM do you really think he would settle for a small sum when he could quite easily approach high profile game companies with GM.

I am not blind, nor do I deny that GM is collapsing right under my nose. I hate that, more than any of you will ever know or understand. It feels like since I have been a moderator I have watched this place shrivel up and nearly die. I question if I am to blame.

I'd rather see good strong solid workable idea's of what we really can do to save GM before it is too late. Why waste time discussing things that never can be? So I ask you all, lets please try and preserve and improve what we have, with the limitations of which we have........but lets do this together
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Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:19 pm
Author Message
ranban282
Ex Moderator


Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 171

Post subject: Reply with quote

I will try to answer some of the points - some parts of the post may be rude - apologies in advance.

Quote:

Search engines

Today on yahoo search for "play monopoly online" galactic magnate falls all the way to the middle to page 4.

Today on a google search for "play monopoly online" we fall to page 2 (2nd one down)


Well, we should not be all that concerned about Yahoo - its search is not great , and it is dying as well - me and my friends haven't used it in ages, but google is a problem. It can be revived gradually with posts on forums and game review sites - links the GM site - just simple advertising.

Search engine optimization of our site will help. I already see some keywords in the META tag, we could add some more, remove some - need to see what works.

But even if we were able to improve our search engine ratings, and attract thousands of players to our site, it will not be of much use - the server will not be able to stand it, and will crash.



Quote:
Virus companies

Some months ago I spotted that my yahoo search engine was flagging GM up as bad. The search results were using mcaffee's site advisor.
Site advisor is a popular programme, and filters search engine results for dangers.
We currently show as having 5 red downloads.
This basically is saying that mcaffee believe GM to contain viruses. This however is completely untrue.

I with Kreso's consent attempted to challenge them, however it was completely useless. They would not alter the rating unless ALL downloads were deleted from the server. Kreso deleted all but the current version. However Kreso told me to not make further contact with them.

AVG 2011 - This also has an inbuilt safe browsing function, of which blocked GM and reported it to be containing spyware. Again this is not the case.
Kreso repackaged the install and released v1.27 to get past this issue. It worked at the time, whether it will continue to work we do not know.

It is only a matter of time before other high profile virus companies flag GM as bad. As time goes by these virus programs become more and more protective filtering things of which are not bad, but they detect something within a programs coding of which is alien to them. Least this is my belief.


It is antivirus actually.
A couple of questions here:
1. Does google flag it as bad? If so, please post here. Will need to investigate it.
2. Has anyone using firefox seen it flagged as bad? If so, please post here. Will need to investigate it.

Screenshots will help, as I haven't seen seen such a thing yet.

But Trace has got it about right. Any site from which executables(.exe et al) can be downloaded has the potential to be flagged as malicious. This is quite stupid, but that is how antivirus companies work.

This problem can be removed by switching to a browser based version. JavaScript and HTML have advanced no end in the last 6-7 years. Yes - you could be playing GM on a browser - imagine that! Mac users will be happy as well.


Quote:
New users
It is a direct result of all the above that new user numbers have significantly dropped. Out of every new user many will not stay as they play their first game, see it is not as they imagined and that is it, we never see them again! This has ALWAYS been the case, however with less new users coming on, there is naturally a huge decrease in retained new users.


Very true.


Quote:

Cyou (Jarrods) post on Kreso stepping down as Game developer. This will NEVER happen.


Why? I know that we are supposed to be grateful to Kreso for developign GM and releasing it for free, but the players, including yours truly, have the right to a better user experience. After all, we devote a lot a lot of time to the game, and have a reason to be annoyed if the same problems keep recurring.



Quote:
For starters I expect Kreso created GM with the help of a program, now these programs do not come cheap. Whoever were to make changes would require access to whatever program to work on it. Well that requires money, and a fair bit of it!


I have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about, and am not sure that you do either. What program? Do you mean something like Visual Studio? Yes, it is proprietary, but its express edition is free. But leaving that aside, any worthwhile web application/web site today almost exclusively on free software. Google, Yahoo,Amazon,Facebook,Twitter, Youtube... the list is almost endless. These companies have figured that it is not worth paying for the licences, and only use proprietary software unless there is absolutely no alternative. Any IT professional will tell you that.


Quote:
Equally neither myself or Cyndi has any knowledge of computer programming. Sure I would happily try and learn how to use a program, but that doesn't mean I'd succeed!


Why is it that Trace and Cyndi have to lead a development effort? I am sure that there are quite a few developers amongst us. And those who can't program can contribute in other important ways - testing and providing valuable feedback.


Quote:

Ranban post regarding copying GM......

Well to be honest I should be blocking such posts because it is a total violation of Kreso's copyright that you even consider using his forum to steal and copy his game!


The truth is that the copyright part completely slipped my mind. My sincere apologies. But the intention is not to steal. It is only because nobody is willing or able to continue work on this game. If Kreso or anyone else is willing to work, all this will be irrelevant.
That said, if I were to attempt to create a game of this sort, I will seek legal advice from a copyright lawyer.


Quote:
But the reality is, even if you manage to get enough people together with knowledge....as with anything there must always be a leader. Someone who takes charge and manages. Do you really believe you can create a copy of GM with a bunch of people from all over the world without any money!


Yes, it is certainly possible. Open source projects work just like that. It may help to have a leader or leaders, but a team of equals work just fine. All it requires is interest. The only monetary part is the cost of actually hosting the game. This may be paid for by interested people. Also, I work for a web hosting company, and may be able to get discounted, or even free hosting.

A single developer can build GM, working a couple of hours a day in less than 2 months. Many important softwares/languages/operating systems were the work of one individual! GM is nothing compared to those! But I think the game (or any software) will better if there are at least 2-3 developers right from the beginning.

The key, of course, is continuous improvement, and that is something GM is severely lacking. Which is the point of all the threads.


Quote:

Whilst it is not fact, it is from all I have got to know over time that Kreso does not intend to sell GM. Or directly hand over the rights to it. He will say yes he will sell, but he will not make it easy. He is not a stupid man, he is actually incredibly intelligent. If he wanted to sell GM do you really think he would settle for a small sum when he could quite easily approach high profile game companies with GM.


I was hoping that he would open-source it! Like the best software around! I have emailed Kreso a couple of times, but have not received a response, so I don't know how he feels.


Quote:
I'd rather see good strong solid workable idea's of what we really can do to save GM before it is too late. Why waste time discussing things that never can be? So I ask you all, lets please try and preserve and improve what we have, with the limitations of which we have


Who gets to decide what are the workable ideas and what are not? I have spoken a few times (including in this thread) about rewriting. The way I see it - the options are:
1. Kreso takes time out to analyse the feedback, and pushes out changes, and takes a continuous interest in the game henceforth.
2. Kreso open sources the code.
3. Kreso releases and explains the code to a few people.
4. Rewrite from scratch. Figure out how similar it can be to GM, and make the game robust, flexible, and most importantly, continuously improving.

Since options 1,2 and 3 are unlikely, 4th is the most feasible. I am pushing for it since there seems to be no other way. I will be more than happy to discuss alternatives. Things mentioned earlier in the post, such as search engine optimization, advertising, etc. will not be any use unless the flaws at the core are removed.

I will be the first to admit that is easier said than done. But it is possible. Interest is the key. What irks me is that people are very willing to shoot down an idea before it even comes onto the runway.

Quote:
........but lets do this together


That is the best, if not the only way, of doing things.
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Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:46 pm
Author Message
trace567
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Post subject: Reply with quote

ranban282 wrote:

4. Rewrite from scratch. Figure out how similar it can be to GM, and make the game robust, flexible, and most importantly, continuously improving.

Since options 1,2 and 3 are unlikely, 4th is the most feasible. I am pushing for it since there seems to be no other way. I will be more than happy to discuss alternatives. Things mentioned earlier in the post, such as search engine optimization, advertising, etc. will not be any use unless the flaws at the core are removed.



Are you planning on gaining Kreso's consent for this?

Also only Kreso has access to make any changes to the website and its meta tags.
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Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:33 pm
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ranban282
Ex Moderator


Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 171

Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm... It should be possible for Kreso to give the admins the ability to change the meta tags... anyway.

I am hoping that we will not come to option 4. I have once again emailed Kreso. But if there is no response, and if others are interested in game development, then we can go ahead after examining the copyright legalities. I thought I made that clear in my earlier post. Where does Kreso's permission come into the picture if we are doing that? Of course, if he says something like "I don't have the time to help you, but you may go ahead and I won't trouble you regarding the copyright", then it will make unnecessary the time and effort spent on the copyright business.

As I said before, option 4 will be explored only if there is no response, or if he is uncooperative. I am awaiting his reply. But as I said before, all this will be worthwhile only if some players show interest.
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Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:07 pm
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fingerbun
Planet


Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 769
Location: Sydney

Post subject: Reply with quote

Without getting to lengthy or complicated here is what I think needs to be changed.

1. Improve search engine results.
2. Have the web site provide a “demo mode” for new players. No one wants to read 4 pages of rules.

I don’t believe there is nothing wrong with the core of the game. By this I mean graphics, game play etc. More lenience with chat is needed. Getting banned for swearing is ridiculous. Having moderators search through peoples conversations without any complaint or reason is also ridiculous. By doing this moderators are basically looking for reasons to ban members

Professional moderators! Although I do not agree with everything Trace does, she does a good job and is professional. She can speak to members regarding sensitive issues without being rude. From my experience and the reason I left was mainly due to unprofessional moderators, namely Aussie. Moderators such as Bezma, CYN are plan rude and aggressive. They cant handle conflict.

And lastly, having moderators who can type English would go along way. And to be clear, I have nothing against people like Bezma and Prince for not having great English. I actually wish I could speak another launage half as good as these cats can speak/type English. But for God sake, they shouldn’t be running a English spoken forum.
_________________
I am the artist formally known as FINGERBANG!
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Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:20 pm
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fingerbun
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 769
Location: Sydney

Post subject: Reply with quote

TRACE Wrote:
Quote:
"Today on a google search for "play monopoly online" we fall to page 2 (2nd one down)"


I just did a search. I typed in "online monopoly". Galactic Magnate was the 5th one down. I discovered GM through google but that was many years ago. As I recall, GM was the first thing that came up.
_________________
I am the artist formally known as FINGERBANG!
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:02 am
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HHHfan
Moon


Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 338

Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of points here. Number one, to fingerbang, Trace made a demo for this game and its on youtube. Would it be better if it could be viewed on the site, certainly, but still, my point, a demo exists. Secondly to that, I didnt read the rules when I started, I just played, and caught on, to me, thats the best way to learn a game like this.

Ok, on to improvements to keep players, to me, its simple, let people be people, in other words, I'd recommend to stop banning people for saying stuff, and players, stop reporting people just because they said something you find offensive in the lobby, get over it, for the good of the game.

Third point, would be nice to enforce the actual rules, in one form or another. Give blatent auction cheats so many strikes and your out, point reduction, ban, whatever, deter people from cheating. Nobody likes being cheated, and some people dont have the patience like i do to just learn 2p, they just move on.

Now, my fourth point, is an obvious one....USE FACEBOOK! Many of us have facebook accounts. Post on your status, this website, and how great of a game it is, and see if one or two of someones hundred friends, check it out!

I think I may have another point or two, but for now, I gotta run, Ill think on it while im gone!
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:04 am
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trace567
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Ranban if you had Kreso's backing or approval I would support it 100% and do anything I could to help. Without his permission I cannot back it, for obvious reasons really. Nor would I be able to allow it to be discussed on GM if he responded with no.

I'm glad that for a different search term we get to page 1 on google, that is good news at least.

I would happily have chat logs not checked if there was a word filter in place, and easy access to report and mute. Unfortunately neither is part of the interface.....something I have been moaning about for years.

Today it took me 22 mins, yep I timed it lol to check the full log of 25th. So believe me I ain't sat there reading it. I hate the flaming things!
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:12 am
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trace567
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Oh also.....is anyone any good at creating banner ad's the sort that users could copy and paste to websites they own, or to forum accounts they may have else where etc etc?
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:01 am
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HHHfan
Moon


Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 338

Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, trace, I just tried to download galactic on a computer here, and Norton detected a virus, so it said. I dont know how that plays into it, but on this computer, when the download was scanned, a virus was supposedly detected. I actually dont think I'll finish the download on this computer at this time, is it possible there is a virus with the download? I thought i should let ya know, its not only the google search and yahoo search, its the antivirus itself, this anti virus says there is a virus, thats all I know, now, when I downloaded it on my other computer a few weeks ago, the scan came up clean, idk whats changed.
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:24 am
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trace567
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I haven't used norton myself, but nothing has changed since kreso updated the install to v1.27, and even then it was just repackaged because AVG was blocking it.

The game itself has not changed in all the years the install was version 1.26 and now 1.27 was only due to avg. Thats the whole thing, GM has not changed, anti virus companies have!

Kreso has stated to me that GM does NOT contain any viruses.

I'm currently using avast and that has not flagged any issues as yet.
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:50 am
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Fort
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Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 1603

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Trace. I would be be blunt here.

Why this place died? I will tell you few reasons , and thats according to me, no one needs to subscribe to it ...

1.Excessive bans . Cut some slack, i have seen this happening since days of Husky, people getting banned for uttering few slangs which are often taken out of context to get a ban placed. If you remember , it was me who had started scrolling on chat logs , but that was for routine abusers. Obviously moderators have taken this a bit too far.

2.Attitude of moderators towards players is like they own the place. Make them feel welcome , make them feel wanted.

3.Death of tournaments - Yes few of people killed this awesome idea where oldies used to hand out once in a month. Sorry i m not coming to 5K tourney. Oh well now again its 50K, it was 5K only when you needed to kill people and find a reason to fight them.

Not many know me here , so not really bothered of flames expected !
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:57 pm
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trace567
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Fort you have at least touched on things of which are within our power and control to look at and address.
I don't believe ban's are a huge part of the problem, but they are nonetheless an aspect of GM's structure of which we do have ability to alter. I already started looking at the ban list at the weekend, to get a better view of what bans we currently have active. I am hoping to have a moderator meeting this weekend, where I intend to raise the discussion on if any current bans can be removed, or any can be reduced in length. Unfortunately there are active bans of which we cannot get to, to even undo. This would be bans placed approx 10-11 month ago or longer.

Crabbs started the discussion thread about the ban and penalty guidelines after I posted it, unfortunately it didn't get a lot of feedback.
http://www.galacticmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5292
I'd be grateful of members and ex mods (including yourself fort) could add some input there, some suggestions of anything we should scrap entirely, anything we should loosen up with and by how much.

I was not here from the beginning of GM as you know, I started to take more of an interest in the forum side of things a little before Husky took over head mod.
But chat logs were being routinely checked by mods when I arrived on the scene.

Tournaments have been falling in popularity for a very long time, soon after I became a mod Gaz took tourneys to once every 2 months as numbers were dropping.
These days I try and make sure there is 1 tourney first weekend of every calender month, I'm just trying to have people know ahead of time when to expect them. We did get a very good turn out for Christmas when it was free entry Laughing

I have made mistakes in my time as a mod, I'm sure I have been responsible for bad bans even though intentions were good. I'm sure most mods past and present can relate to that. It is partly why I started the guidelines, I wanted a way to keep all mods in line with one another, and also for each mod to stay in line with themselves. Plus give players a more open approach where they can better gage if they were treated unfairly.
In fact just creating it over several weeks made me look more closely at my own bans and whether on some occasions I was too harsh.
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 3:58 pm
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ranban282
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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I think that a little more transparency will help. For instance, we still don;t know what happened to Yiles/elvishasentered.
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Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:12 pm
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trace567
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ranban282 wrote:
I think that a little more transparency will help. For instance, we still don;t know what happened to Yiles/elvishasentered.


I will be raising the topic of his ban in the mod meeting, his current ban of which was placed after he was found to be bypassing was not issued by me.

Now here's an idea for you all.....whilst it is important mods have meeting alone, how about a meeting between mods and players where by players can bring topics to a group of mods in a meeting?

To be honest it could be tricky to arrange as even mod meetings are hard to achieve due to so many time zones, but I would be up for giving it a shot at least.
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