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Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:28 pm
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aussie
Ex Moderator


Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 1457
Location: Australia

Post subject: Reply with quote

well as far as i can see only one person doing all the bitching and moaning making life hell for mods.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:29 pm
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Magflag12
Moon


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 373

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Crabbs...

I agree that mods need to accept the fact there are going to be complaints. However, they don't have to, nor should, tolerate useless moaning.

Crabbs...

This is NOT an appeal:

"THIS IS STUPID!!! I DID NOT DO ANYTHING WRONG!!!!!! YOU MODS ARE POWER HUNGRY!!!"

Mods see this type of b****ing and moaning almost every day and it is NOT an appeal. It is just a sad being that feels the need to complain that he has received punishment.

An appeal would be something like this:

"I did not intend to cheat in any way. I sold the green for that cheap because I felt there was not enough time for him to benefit from it. I also had meant to sell it for 500 more, I had just sent the wrong offer. I do not agree with the decision and I ask that all mods review this thoroughly together. Please reconsider your decision."

Of course it doesnt have to be so diplomatic, but you see the difference between a whine and an appeal. An appeal is a disagreeance but is done so in a constructive manner and logically states the opposing side. A whine is something that holds absolutely NO VALUE whatsoever.

You are mistaken appeals with whining Crabbs, you really are.

Bottum line: Mods should expect there to be appeals, but should not tolerate useless b****ing and moaning.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:38 pm
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palabra
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Joined: 05 Feb 2009
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Location: right behind you

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MrCrabbs wrote:

You cannot have a one-sided deal, where players have no right to disagree but are obliged not to "moan". But it you are talking about a 2-way deal where mods agree to listen and change their rulings where appropriate, and players agree to only disagree in a cool-headed and respectful way that works and all players would surely support it.


Crabbs- read my post again.

i clearly stated that players should have the right to question decisions. so why do you say this AGAIN? i already agreed with you, but you chose to critique what i said anyways.

i was not talking of a one-sided deal. i think players should be able to disagree with decisions, and have them looked over again. however, if a player is just going to moan and not handle the disagreement with tact, then the moaning should just be ignored. sometimes, players just moan without reason on decisions that are pretty darn clear.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:07 pm
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MrCrabbs
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If we disagree, then it might be on the following point. You guys seem to want to come down hard on groundless moaning, whereas my fear is that, in coming down on that, there is the risk that we also stamp out legitimate disagreement. I am making no point other than that.

This is not a good day. None of us wanted Trace to quit and I for one share some responsibility, as Helen seems intent on demonstrating. Please let's take stock.

There is obviously a balance to be struck so that mods jobs are manageable and they have enough power to do them effectively, without trampling the rights of players. Helen has said she thinks GM needs ruling with an "iron fist", whereas I intend continue to stand up for players rights. But I do not wish to make any mod's job difficult. It is a job they should take pride in, but one which does unfortunately involve hearing players moan. I honestly see this as unavoidable.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:30 pm
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Magflag12
Moon


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 373

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I see your points and I agree Crabbs. As for both ends of the extreme... It seems Helen wants an all-powerful Modship while you want a lot more power to the people. I find myself in the middle of those, or at least trying to be in the middle.

I have seen both sides... being a player and being a mod. I think you, Crabbs, do honestly help keep us in check by saying some of the things you want to say. However, I do feel you have placed an unrealistic expectation on us, just as we may have placed an unrealistic expectation on the players. You expect us to make our decisions and then listen to the thousands of players who voice their opinion on the matter and then try to appease their needs. The fact is, Trace and Bill have done that tremendously, the only time it hasn't happened is when the only argument was a bunch of moaning and nothing constructive. YOu have failed to recognize that time and time again and you have referred back to only rare occasions. You demand a modship that will hear everyone out, yet you yell over all other voices.

I am guilty of this as well, and I see you argument, but we are definately going to have to find some way for a middle ground. The status quo has some balance, but I can see where we might need more. Which direction should we lean? I don't know... perhaps we should look at Trace's resignition as a sign or some evidence of what to do.
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If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.
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Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:24 am
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MrCrabbs
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Your point that I have a tendancy to shout loudest is a valid one, but I do that mostly when I have put across an argument which has received no meaningful response. It is quite frustrating to have a valid point ignored or go unaddressed. The natural response is to repeat the point, and hope to get a response that time.

I don't think Trace's resignation is indicative of very much in terms of how the mod/player power balance is. It can hardly be said that players have too much power at GM, or that mods decisions get overturned by player votes, since we don't do those things.

It is possible my continued call to action on tournament reform and on establishing the rights of players to appeal and to disagree has had an effect but if that is the case it is a sad side effect of a necessary campaign. I put a lot of effort into designing tournament reforms and as much as I like trace she was not willing to give these any real thought, asserting that the status quo was better with no valid reason. And although trace told me that as a player she disliked very much the "behind closed doors" modding, it seems my requests for openness and a clear right to appeal for players has stressed her.

Maybe trace felt trapped between a rock and a hard place, since at the end of the day Bill tends to take most big decisions, and as a mod she may have felt obliged to show no public dissent. If that is the case then this outlook has caused her stress in my opinion. I am sure Bill would not have wanted her to feel this way since he has tried in recent weeks to demonstrate that the forum is a place where mods and players can speak freely. Future mods should not make the mistake of bottling up their emotions in that way.

Trace was fair and everyone at GM who knows her loves having her here. But if the small disagreements on the forum lately have been a factor in her resiging maybe it was unavoidable. Disagreement does happen and always will and we need mods who don't just tolerate that, but want it that way. Losing trace may have been the least bad option, if the alternative was a return to husky-style, no-dissent-tolerated modding.

I have not seen anyone complain about trace's decisions very much so I cannot see that as a reason she left. I suspect she put too much into modding for GM and wore herself out, or is feeling the need to re-adjust her GM/real life balance. But as of now Trace has not posted her reasons for resigning, so I am only speculating.

Once again I am sorry you felt you had to resign trace but I do not regret making the many good points I feel I have on this forum for the bettering of GM. Perhaps I am being too defensive and your resignation was nothing to do with anything I have said or done, but at least one player on the forum is pointing a finger in my direction so this needed saying.
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Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:52 am
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Magflag12
Moon


Joined: 11 Jan 2008
Posts: 373

Post subject: Reply with quote

Crabbs I did not mean to point a finger at you in guilt for Trace's recognition.

She has not publicly announced (to the overall public) any details on her desire to leave modding for GM other than a need to do other things.

I do agree that a vast majority of your points are essential for mods to hear. Perhaps some of them got a bit demanding and self-righteous, but I think everyone does that including myself especially. You and I have quite a few similarities Crabbs, rather or not you would like to admit it Smile/Sad... We both desire social change and expect everyone to see the need as we do.

We also both love the game of GM and only want the best of all possible worlds.

I do believe that we can both alleviate some of the stress by being less demanding and being more relaxed activists... After all its not like we are dealing with things like Oppression of Civil Rights in a realworld application. If we were I would say more power to you and I for that matter, but this is only a game so perhaps we should both be activists on a more moderate level if you catch my drift.

I don't mean to blame you for anything and I apologize for making it seem I was pointing fingers.
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.
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