[clarkkof]

Time-10.30 am european time
it was a 4 players game

Name of the players
elvishasentered
johanmash
playboyluciana
asianrocks

In the game elvis sold to playboy 3 greens for 1400 when it was game was +50. Is it a fair price for 3 greens when the game was +50. elvis gave that offer frist to johan but johan didnt take it,because its nt a fair price in his opinion. I had some aruguments with him in the game, thats why he didnt send any resonable offer to me. He wrote in the chatbox I wont trade with you(asian) i will trade with other two players.

I hope this time i wont go wid empty hands trace;)

Thank you for your time

[Bill2k06]

at first glance i wasnt going to punish this trade as i saw that ''elvis'' was in -1470 debt with only 2 blacks ad 3 greens, and thought he was doing thist get himself out of debt but here are the vital details.

trade accepted
game: 361069
game is ranked
2009/03/03 09:25:10
players at start: 4
players alive: 4
start money: 60
roll: 324
game time: 35:10

players:
0 JohanMash points: 5500 position: 1 cash: 1229 credit: 400
1 elvishasentered points: 8625 position:39 cash: -1470 credit: 2200
2 playboyluciana points: 7778 position: 4 cash: 3627 credit: 230
3 asianrocks points: 3114 position:38 cash: 4853 credit: 150

with +60 on ec, i do believe that te trade is illegal as ALL players had money to bid and that an auction would have been alot more appropriate,

i am of the mind set that the 3 greens should have been sold for no less than 2100 (700 x3)and thus it is illegal trade.

i am going to reduce elvis's points by 50% and playboyluciana's by 25% as they both know an auction would have been more appropriate.
_________________

[ElvisHasEntered]

Terrible.




Did you read the chat log?

[ElvisHasEntered]

And another thing-


I DID try to auction off those greens previously, along with a set of blues, and every other piece of property I had. Asian and the other guy effectively froze me out, so in order to stay alive (start may have been +50 but I was losing money every time around due to my high credit) I had to sell at that price just to get anyone to take. That's not cheating, it's called desperation. In any case, if Asian had wanted my properties, all he had to do was bid when I auctionned them previously. He chose not to. So for him to complain that someone else got them below "normal market value" is ridiculous. The market value is whatever someone is willing to pay at that time. You'll also notice if you check the game more carefully that I offered all kinds of deals to Asian, which he refused in an attempt to freeze me out of the game.


This is BOGUS.

[Bill2k06]

so because you dont have any one buyin when you auction you ruined the game,
elvis i am gettng quite annoyed with you questioning the mods actions, and i am giving you a final warnng now, if i see any morei will place a ban on you,.
_________________

[ElvisHasEntered]

I thought taking half my points was my "warning"?


Now I can't voice a protest or a defense either?

[Bill2k06]

a mods decision is final ,
if you have a problem with a mods decision, i am here for players to come to and ask me to review the punishment, but when i giv out a punisment, you can ask other mods,
all i see though is you trying to flame the forum, it would be more constructive for you to just say:-

''i dont agree with this decision, please will you review this judgement,''


but let me make one point,

if ANY mod has to waste time reviewing any decision and the same result is found , then just like in football, a further punishment may well be incurred for wasting time.
_________________

[ElvisHasEntered]

...

[MrCrabbs]

This decision needs urgently to be revised. An auction costs money. You don't get as much generally. He had offered the trade to other players. He had even put them up for auction, he claims.

It disturbs me that the head mod and an experienced player has the idea that it is cheating to sell a property for anything less than the basic price. There are MANY occasions when it is in both players interests to trade for below the basic price, and that is the only determinant of what is cheating - if it can reasonably benefit both players rank in the game. In this case, it benefitted the buyer, and seems to have had a reasonable chance of benefitting Elvis, the seller, since he was a goner otherwise.

Mods decisions should most certainly not be beyond debate. We have made it very clear as a community that we do not want a tyranny or censorship, and ALL mod decisions should be open to debate. In this case, the decision is plainly wrong, and the punishment out of all proportion.

Elvis has made it very clear why the decision is wrong. You seem to be deviating from the rules Bill, as stated here:

http://www.galacticmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=80

[clarkkof]

listen crabbs i had arguments with elvis.He didnt give me any single trade(reasonable) because I bolcked his propertise. He put some properties in acution but we didnt bid you know why because we know that he will be bankraupt soon.now tell me isnt it our to decesion to whom we should and to whom we shouldnt bid? Isnt it our decesion? tell me crabb?
will you bid if you know that one player will be bankraupt soon,for example in 2 or 3 rounds? will you?
elvis tried to sell the green to franz but franz didnt take that cause it wasnt fair value of green. He worte in chat box its nt a fair value of greens. as I told you elvis didnt give me any resonable offer,moreover he worte in chat box that he will never trade with me even its reasonable. So what do you understand from this? when he got refused from franz he sold to playboy by 1400.
ok if 1400 bucks helped him to build then we might forget that trade!but it doesnt help him even survive! LOL. If he couldnt survive becauseof brown lite blue how cud he survive if the green is upgrades?tell me? whom he sold that greens he had enough money to upgrade at least 3. LOL!

So you can see fairly that ITS A CHEATING!


So Crabbs please and please if you want to help some one,PICK A RIGHT PERSON!

Trust on MOds thats my request. Mod is not only for me.He is for every one.Do they have any benefit if they cheat! They want to help us to play always fair games.

[Magflag12]

I do believe that there is a proper way of handling situations like this. And, Crabbs, I believe that that is what Bill is trying to say here. Coming in here and saying "this is BOGUS" is like a kid ranting to his mother about his punishment. A mother would be, at least my own mommy, would be a lot more likely to listen if the kid handled it as a grown up lad.

Furthermore, I am not sure, unless it is just 100% miss-understanding, that anyone should be challenging decisions from mods on a thread such as this. This goes for all of us; if we believe a wrong decision has been made I think it is neccesary to PM ALL the mods and ask them to reconsider it as a group. If there is decision that is changed, a mod will post the change and apologize for any mistakes that may have been made.

As for this decision, I stand by Bill. If he feels it needs reviewing or if players maturely ask me or some other mods to look into and discuss it, I will be happy to do it, that is my job. I have known Bill a long time and he values this game greatly and you guys are lucky to have him and it seems many of you do not realize his dedication. Respect him, and others just the same, and the same will be unto you.

In the words of Ghandi, "you must be the change you want to see in the world."
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[ElvisHasEntered]

Magflag,


I'll tell you what I told Bill yesterday. It's not so much the "punishment" (i.e. the point deduction) but the reasoning of what really happened and the fact that my reputation as a fair player has now been besmirched. Mr. Crabbs stated it correctly- when I had exhausted all other methods to auction or trade at normal prices, I had to do something, sell anything to stop hemmoraging money every turn past start. It was advantageous to both players- and just because I totally disagreed with the ruling and showed my frustration doesn't mean that I disrespect the game or the mods- so I'm sorry if you feel the need to call me a "ranting child". I'd already let it go, but you felt the need to put your two cents in and I really didn't appreciate the way you characterized my position.

I'm done with it- like I told Trace and Bill- it's over. I disagree, but what else can I do except move on- I suggest you do the same, Magflag. No need to try and flame me.

[Magflag12]

Elvis, I have had conversations with you, and I have nothing against you as a person or player at all. If I have offended you by characterizing your reaction to this ordeal as immature, then perhaps you should look at your posts above. If you look at the words you will not see the words that show evidence of the maturity I know that you have. I have seen you deal with situations before, you have been mature in past, so you should see a distinct difference here.

I understand your reputation is at stake here, but let me remind you that the only way for your reputation to be returned to you is by this decision to no longer be labeled as a cheat trade. Thats the only way your reputation can RETURN. However, now you may be receiving other negative effects to your reputation because you have posted these threads out of anger.

A person of ration will tell you to never make an argument with appeals to emotion, it is literally considered a logical fallacy. Calling the situation "bogus" is clearly a representation of your anger, yes normal, but it does not serve as a rational and mature argument.

As far as dropping this issue goes, I will drop this particular case, but I will not stand by silently as people think they can get what they want by using this irrational argument. There is a thing called conflict resolution that we should all be reading up on.
_________________
If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.

[ElvisHasEntered]

Good Lord.


Can you please let it go already?

[MrCrabbs]

Magflag your posts here are not a fair representation at all of how Elvis defended himself. He has explained very thorougly the reasons it was not a cheat trade. He even has the good manners to accept the decision, something I certainly would not have done in his position.

Until someone explains how it was not in Elvis's interest to sell the greens at this price, this decision will have to go down as ad-hoc, and in breach of the rules set out by Kreso: