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Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:06 am
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MrCrabbs
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Post subject: Trade embargo rule Reply with quote

In addition to the main rules concerning cheats ( http://www.galacticmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4975 ) there is a rule on Trade Embargoes (refusing to trade) that has historically only been enforced occassionally, and only in very clear cases.

It is intended to stop players doing a "Kamikazee" and killing you by refusing to trade with you, even though they are hurting themselves.

Here it is:

Kreso wrote:
Also, about trades: A player is required to accept a trade which is obviously fair (benefits both players involved in a trade). "Trade embargo" is cheating. "Beneficial" is defined as: increases the player's chances to score better.

The point of trades in GM (for 3+ player games) is for players who are trading to gain advantage on other players. The trade should be beneficial to both players. Maybe, if you are a good bargainer, you can sway it a little on your side, but probably not much.

If a player is offered two trades from two different players which are mutually exclusive, and both have the same benefit for the player, then he is free to choose his trading partner. That's why monopoly is a bit of social game: it's good if other players like you, then they might be more willing to trade with you.


Last edited by MrCrabbs on Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:09 am
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MrCrabbs
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The rule, if applied often, can create extra work for mods.

If applied over-vigorously, it creates even more work and many players feel it restricts their freedom to play how they want.

If it's applied to new players who are still getting to grips with the game, that's not really fair.

But if the rule is never enforced, players are free to "Kamikazee" and ruin games.

So it would be good in my view to try to keep this rule for clear cases in the new GM.
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:56 am
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theunknownamus
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That all depends... are we innocent until proven guilty or vice-versa? Unless the chat otherwise specifies, there's no way to tell what the true intent of a player is/was. Any user can say their spite was merely their "strategy"
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:58 am
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judd
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Post subject: Reply with quote

Kreso didn't even write that rule and I sometimes block as part of my strategy
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:28 am
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NewMagnate
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Dear MrCrabbs thank you for your suggestion. I hate the blocking game style. Furthermore, often even symmetrical deals have been blocked (or for example two players have 2 whites and 2 blacks each and one of them doesn't want trade).
But i think that we do not have to force such players into compulsive deals.
For such type of players (persistent in madness Smile) blacklist ratio will be implemented. If player has such "style" he will receive high BL ratio very soon. In settings you can select option to escape such players. And the system will not put you either in the games with players who are the members of your BL or in the games with players with high BL ratio.
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:49 am
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MrCrabbs
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judd wrote:
Kreso didn't even write that rule and I sometimes block as part of my strategy


Yes he did. Ask him.

We all sometimes block. That is not relevant.
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:53 am
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MrCrabbs
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NewMagnate wrote:
Dear MrCrabbs thank you for your suggestion. I hate the blocking game style. Furthermore, often even symmetrical deals have been blocked (or for example two players have 2 whites and 2 blacks each and one of them doesn't want trade).
But i think that we do not have to force such players into compulsive deals.
For such type of players (persistent in madness Smile) blacklist ratio will be implemented. If player has such "style" he will receive high BL ratio very soon. In settings you can select option to escape such players. And the system will not put you either in the games with players who are the members of your BL or in the games with players with high BL ratio.


I don't have the same confidence as you in the wisdom of players.

Many like to go round and to round and not trade, and will actually use the blacklist to block active traders.
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:56 am
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MrCrabbs
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theunknownamus wrote:
That all depends... are we innocent until proven guilty or vice-versa? Unless the chat otherwise specifies, there's no way to tell what the true intent of a player is/was. Any user can say their spite was merely their "strategy"


I don't agree, it is clear enough if they don't send any offers all game, refuse all offers, and finish last or second last with a load of untraded part-sets.
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:57 pm
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Falun
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Post subject: Reply with quote

Crabs I agree you raise a lot of interesting and valid points and as much as it annoys myself also when players flatly refuse to make a trade nevermind a fair one, I don't believe it can be enforced. It would result in a very narrow optic of individuality and gameplay.

Trading is down to the individuals offer and all to often their nature and sometimes skills in communication and persuassion. This is all part of the game.

Forcing players to trade would help only those with very intelligent understanding of the trade possibilities and marginalise those that don't. We should keep the decission to trade or not a personal one.

The recomendation to players to trade is enough in the game hints and help sections in my opinion.

F
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:28 pm
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trace567
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I was in support of reintroducing the non trading rule here, under very strict guidelines of when it could and could not be put into use. It did not go down particularly well with players or moderators in general and I was not overly popular in doing this.

Now whilst I was in support of it here under the current game format with strict rules as to when it could and could not apply, I don't feel that for the new version on GM it would be appropriate. There are going to be many more players, with easier reporting functions. There is predicted to be a large increase in reports. Non trading is also something that must only be ruled about by a very experienced player who can not just view something a cheat trade, but establish the fact x player had no other methods available to them to improve their ranking. So its really not as simple as looking at a trade which took place, in non trading you must look around all that very thoroughly to what other options the player had, why they refused to trade (did they have fair reason not to) etc etc.

I don't therefore feel it would be very helpful for whoever the moderators will be to deal with such complaints fairly and consistently. As there will be the blacklist option, I think that will give players a way to avoid players they dislike playing. Also if as I mentioned in another post trade offers could be viewed after the game , you could pick up on stubborn or annoying player before you actually encounter their refusal to take part in a good fair trade.
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Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:14 am
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MrCrabbs
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Trace, Falun and NewMagnate you all make good points.

Maybe the blacklist will solve this infuriating problem without threatening anyone's freedom.

Maybe there will develop three cultures - those who blacklist the non-traders, those who blacklist the traders, and those peaceful types who don't blacklist either.

I know what camp I'll be in though Twisted Evil

Trace, I am really liking your suggestion of having trade offers visible after the game.
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Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:07 pm
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judd
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Joined: 07 Jul 2008
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Location: All over the local papers

Post subject: Reply with quote

MrCrabbs wrote:
judd wrote:
Kreso didn't even write that rule and I sometimes block as part of my strategy


Yes he did. Ask him.

We all sometimes block. That is not relevant.


he didnt write that rule, that was amended post original game 1 nil

i block if i have better income than some one who is waiting to close a set better than what i have 2 nil

you are not relevant 3 nil
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:22 pm
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theunknownamus
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Nil? Neutral
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Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:54 pm
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MrCrabbs
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judd wrote:
he didnt write that rule, that was amended post original game 1 nil


Either he wrote it or you are accusing me of making it up and putting his name to it.

If I had made it up I would hardly be posting it in the forum of a game he made, would I?

Seriously embarrasing yourself here.

judd wrote:
i block if i have better income than some one who is waiting to close a set better than what i have 2 nil


Which, if it benefitted your final rank would not be cheating. But which, if it condemned the two of you to last and second last, would be.

judd wrote:
you are not relevant 3 nil


I think you are confusing the dictionary definition of relevant with that used in the land of trolls and bridges.
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