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Is white ALWAYS better than black?
Yes
25%
 25%  [ 3 ]
No
75%
 75%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 12
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Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:49 am
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Bleu_Soul
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Post subject: Is white always better than black? Reply with quote

Simple question. I just feel that people tend to underestimate black very frequently if given a choice between buying either that or white. Before deciding, please read some of the information below, and then vote.

As everyone knows, when you buy the extractors (white) whenever anyone, including yourself, lands on it you will gain a certain amount of cash depending on how many tiles you've bought, but whoever landed on it will not lose any. However, when you buy utilities (black) you will gain a certain amount of cash and whoever landed on it will lose a certain amount of cash. Blacks are typically cheaper than whites, but depending on the amount of players there are, you can earn much more in terms of pure profit from white, the most from 2p and the least from 5p, at the cost of not being able to sting your opponent when they land. White gives out most of its potential profit when you buy the third tile, but buying the last black doubles its income.

Given all of that, is it always necessarily better to get white assuming optimal conditions (i.e. beginning of game, you can buy both with the 20% discount going to you)?

Comments?
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Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:54 am
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Bleu_Soul
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011
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Ha, I just saw other similar threads. =) Oh well, I have a poll, and they don't. Still, a little public opinion would not hurt.
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Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:13 am
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fingerbun
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
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Location: Sydney

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Hi Blue, welcome to the forums.

In a two player game there will be no difference if one player owns 4 blacks and the other owns 4 whites.

In a game with 3 or more people, I would prefer to own 4 whites then 4 blacks.

Blacks are usless unless you own all 4.

I only play 2 player games. I only use utilties and extractors as a means to have my opponent spend their cash. Many games I will let my opponent have all the extractors. Sets are much better.
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Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:39 am
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Bleu_Soul
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That's intersting.

Why would you prefer to own white when in a higher player game? Compared to black, you only get 25% more profit in a 5p game, and 33.33% more in a 4p game, and 50% more in 3p. But at the same time, black would be hurting other players and helping to place you in first.

Basically, the more people you have in a game, the more effective black is in my opinion. Assuming you have all players in a 5p land on your black/white while you own four, this is what happens in one round. Look at this:

Black

+600 cash to you
-150 to p2
-150 tp p3
-150 to p4
-150 to p5
-600 total to all opponents

White

+750 cash to you
-0 to p2
-0 to p3
-0 to p4
-0 to p5
-0 total to all opponents

Basically, you get less profit, but much more in terms of putting down the opponent with black. It's the same with other games, but equalizes with two players.

I suppose that if you were trying to upgrade a property then the extra bit of cash might help you, but competitively and through the length of the game, black might be preferable. Again, however, there is the problem of having to get the last black before it really has an impact on the game. Otherwise it'd be like having orange fully upgraded if you'd only have three tiles. White would be easier since you get much more with just three.

What do you think?
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Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:02 pm
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ranban282
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Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 171

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Quote:

+600 cash to you
-150 to p2
-150 tp p3
-150 to p4
-150 to p5
-600 total to all opponents

White

+750 cash to you
-0 to p2
-0 to p3
-0 to p4
-0 to p5
-0 total to all opponents


Your calculations answer the question. In a 5p game,based on your assumptions, 4 whites give you +750 cash, but don't hurt your opponents one bit. 4 blacks give you an income of 600, but cause each of your opponents a loss of 150, i.e. you are better off than each of your opponents by a figure of 750.

This can be generalized to an n player game (2<=n<=5), where you gain 150*n with whites, and cause no loss to your opponents, making you better off than your opponents by 150*n. With blacks, you earn 150*(n-1), but cause your opponents a loss of 150, so you are still better of than your opps by 150*n.

To cut a long story short, 4 blacks/4 whites are equivalent in terns of the profit they bring relative to your opponents, and are equal to 3 cyans fully upgraded.

So looking purely on an income basis, there is no difference. I believe that the differences between black and white occur because of the following (the list is not exhaustive):

1. Whites inject money into the game. So if you are the one with relatively high income, but are relatively low on cash, you would want to own 4 whites to prolong the game. If the situation is the opposite, you would want to own 4 blacks.

2. In any game, it is possible that you may not get to own all 4. In that case, 3 whites is better than 3 blacks.

3. In the early stages of the game, when people are buying properties and getting back to start, the whites have a greater chance of hits. In particular, the first white gets hit far more often than the fist black in the early stages. The others are around the same. So if you own the first 3 extractors relatively early in the game, you are far better off than owning any 3 blacks.

4. Following on from point(1), you will have a little more cash in hand to buy other properties if you own whites.

5. If you had a choice between owning one white and one black (if you don't want to trade), you would want the white because it gives you more income, to be precise 80% more income. If you did want to sell one white/black to someone who owns 3 of them, the price would depend on these:
a) The white is more valuable to you(you would want more for it), but less so to the potential buyer.(He wouldn't want to pay you what much)
b) The black is less valuable to you, but more to the buyer, so he may be willing to pay more.
The price will depend on the exact circumstances, and of course perception of the players.

6. Fortune squares often give the option of proceeding to an extractor. The owner would nearly always choose to proceed. The other players may proceed if there is a long distance involved.

I believe that taking all the factors into account, whites are better than blacks, and therefore command a higher price. As to how much higher it should be, the exact circumstances decide that.
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Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:51 pm
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Bleu_Soul
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Posts: 21
Location: Chula Vista, California

Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I believe your reasoning is right. However, I believe you forgot one thing when making your decision.

As you know, in any typical >2p game, the first few whites usually cost around 1500. Sometimes more, ranging up to 1800 (and that seems to be the usual price for the third white), but almost never less. In fact, for any standard price, I would think that white would be the least disputed. Also, when buying white, hardly ever do you actually get the 20% discount, since most people like to auction white off when they land to earn a nice chunk of profit (300 is pretty decent), and to disadvantage the player who is trying to purchase white. As a result, it is relatively uncommon for a player to be able to own all four whites, sometimes not even three, because they exhaust all their cash early game buying just the first two. What happens after is fairly obvious - anyone who lands on the third or fourth white often opens it to deprive said player of getting it.

Blacks, on the other hand, are a different story. In any typical <2p game, they will cost anywhere between 1000-1300, cheaper than white. And usually, people tend to be far less inclined to open it merely for the sake of getting some cash themselves, lending you an even cheaper cost when you get the 20% discount. Of course, that means it may take longer for you to get all four blacks or even three, but in the long run I believe that is better than immediately losing half or most of them to the opponent because you don't have enough money.

The point you brought up about fortunes and people going to them to cover distances or avoid other properties is interesting. As you know, blacks have a relatively odd positioning on the board compared to white. They are frequently located in between or right before some major or costly properties to land on (green, red, yellow, and to some extent cyan although the white there would be better for avoiding it). Fortunes really are just as likely to select a black for players to go to than whites. Early game it may be undesirable, but late game, when red and green and yellow become very dangerous, there would be a large increase in desirability to land on those rather than risk losing 250, 300 or even 500. Not to mention, you may as well own those blacks too, since if you land on them but don't own them, you still lose 150, assuming all four are under am monopoly.
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Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:49 pm
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fingerbun
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Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 769
Location: Sydney

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Iíve always felt that the positioning of whites are purposefully done. Their positions seem to get the most activity. Early in the game when players are still acquiring sets, whites defiantly get pounded. Once all sets have been brought the black Vs white seems to start levelling out.

There was a post done a long time ago in reference to the most common hit squares. A member (I think it was Bungoo) wrote a programme to figure out which square(s) have the highest and lowest probability of being hit.

I have always felt it is easier acquiring 3 whites then 4 blacks in a multiplayer game. No one ever lets you have the last black square. I also believe that 3 whites will overpower 3 blacks.

Every game will vary. So your main question is a bit hard to answer without a scenario.
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Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:56 pm
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fingerbun
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Location: Sydney

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Oh and Blue... Your think your paying way to much for extractors and utilties lol.

1160-1230 is the top I would pay for extractors depending on who starts the bidding
1300-1400 for the third
1160-1230 for the fourth

900-1000 for the first two utilities
1100 max for the third (only if I am bidding)
1200-1400 for the fourth
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Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:31 pm
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Bleu_Soul
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011
Posts: 21
Location: Chula Vista, California

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fingerbun wrote:
Oh and Blue... Your think your paying way to much for extractors and utilties lol.

1160-1230 is the top I would pay for extractors depending on who starts the bidding
1300-1400 for the third
1160-1230 for the fourth

900-1000 for the first two utilities
1100 max for the third (only if I am bidding)
1200-1400 for the fourth


Prices vary from game to game, person to person. In my own experience I've never seen the first few whites go for anything less than 1400-1500. Usually more.

About whites being landed on more than blacks...in reality, I think the rates are quite equal. It is a given though that with the nature of a roll of dice, some numbers are bound to come up more often than others due to the fact that they have multiple sums equaling the same amount. The reason Bonus tends to be hit often is because 7 has the highest rate of success, and because people often go back to start due to buying properties, being sent there via fortune, etc.

The thing is though, despite the roll of the dice being biased towards some numbers more than others, after the first roll where you land really is random and different every time. If you were to roll 7's five times in a row, you won't be on the seventh square on the bottom of the board. See what I'm saying? The only way I would imagine white being statistically more likely to be landed on than black is because the first is five squares from start, whereas the first black is two. But I think that's made up for by the last black being seven squares from jail.
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