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Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:16 am
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jatt
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Joined: 21 Mar 2009
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Post subject: Right to Appeal????? Reply with quote

I believe a person who is banned for longer than 5 days should have the right to appeal in front of the Glactic Monopoly Forums users. He or she should have to right to have there voices heard and every Glactic Monopoly Forum user should get to participate as an active member by voting for the dissscion being made. The voting should last for 5 days so maximum amount of users can vote on that issure. They can vote on releasing the ban or making it shorter or even extending the ban. I just think only shouldn't get to participate but everyone else should too...
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:04 am
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aussie
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Location: Australia

Post subject: Reply with quote

if you have been banned then cop it sweet BUT learn from it
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:07 pm
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MrCrabbs
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I agree that you should have the right to appeal, but that should be done in the thread where the complaint was made. I am against it being decided by a vote, since I do not believe good and cinsistent decisions would be made. Rather it should be on the strength of argument. Mods should change their view according to the arguments raised.

I think we need a commitment from all mods to listen to appeals patiently and to always be prepared to change their decision.

Once we have that commitment, we can get rid of mods who fail to listen, and bring in or give extra responsibility to mods who do listen to sound arguments. There is nothing more frustrating than players discussing the game, and mods either shutting the conversation down, or putting their fingers in their ears and singing the mod song.

So mods - how about it? Do you agree to be bound by the commitment in bold? After all, this isn't a dictatorship...
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:52 pm
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Magflag12
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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I agree with your notion Crabbs but I think it may cause some problems if we don't lay some framework down.

You see, many people have mistaken recent "appeals" with moaning about decisions. There is a fine line between the two.

It seems that a majority of talk on the report section have been people telling mods how to do their job and then complaining when the mods do them.

I do agree that people who have the right to state their opinion on the matter SO LONG as it is contstructed out of logic and is done so in a productive manner.

To see an example on how NOT to state your argument of opinion look at myself here:

http://www.galacticmag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3090

This is one example of me not handling the situation well, I went on and on about it and in all reality it wasn't me constructing my opinion based off reason, it was me just moaning about an inconvenience and the fact nothing could be done about it.

There are literally a hundred examples of things like this I could post that involve myself and tons others.

I agree that people should be able to state their opinion, and mods should be ready to correct a decision they have made if it is imperfect, BUT I think that if we start telling people they have a right to "appeal" they are suddenly going to think its ok to B**** and moan about decisions.



[/b]
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:24 pm
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MrCrabbs
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Right. My problem is that, in order to reduce bitching and moaning, mods seem to think it is ok to shut down disagreement of all sorts. Moaning seems a natural side effect of the right to appeal and I can think of no way of stopping it.

I think it would be good if mods signed up to the above commitment and we can proceed from there. Right now, trace and Bill seem to think they have a right to expect no disagreement. I think it is that unrealistic expectation that is the cause of their unhappiness, and they will be unhappy so long as they seek to get rid of disagreement. They need to embrace it, warts and all.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:43 am
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aussie
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Post subject: Reply with quote

being an active mod requires a lot of time. i.e. tracking down cheat trades , reading chat logs etc, and imo i dont think the mods should have extra work pushed onto them.

if you are so hell bent on things being run a certain way crabbs apply for mod position and put yourself in the firing line
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:49 am
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Magflag12
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Helen here.... ^^

I see what your going for here Crabbs and I agree with you to some extent, but what I am basically saying is that b****ing and moaning provides absolutely no progress so it should not be tolerated.

Here is a simple solution I would like to propose;

IF a person disagrees with decision that has been made that has effected them then they may voice said opinion.

HOWEVER

If it resembles b****ing and/or moaning it will be ignored.

Anyway crabbs you have quite a tall order for us mods, perhaps you do not understand the full extent of being a mod who deals with 5-10 cheat accusations a day. Dealing with them is one thing, but then having to justify yourself after EVERY single decision has been made makes it a lot more burdening.

If you were mod Crabbs I think you would understand a bit more that the constant bickering is working backwards against not only the goals of the mods, but the goals of the people who b**** and moan in the first place.

Trace and Bill have heard other opinions in the past and I don't know where you have gone off to say they haven't. There, of course, have been times Bill has stated that no amount of bickering is going to change the decision, but that is because he has been around a long time and knows peoples past histories that have lead him to his decision. I think you know Crabbs, of all people, that if you approach Bill and/or Trace like an adult you get treated like one.
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If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:53 am
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MrCrabbs
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I respect the point you make helen, and yes Magflag I am sure that if I was a mod I would also want to minimise my workload, even if that meant some appeals were ignored. But that does not make it right - the view from the other side, the player's side, is if anything more important in my view.

In addition I do not have the time to do a mod's job at the moment, but I should say I think it a bit unfair to say that if a player is not willing to do the job they should just accept the way it is done currently. In fact, it seems to be pushing me into a position I am not trying to present - I am not saying that I could do the job better than Bill or trace, I am saying that they are excellent mods, but I think everything would be better, for them and for GM, if they accepted and became fully comfortable with appeals in forum.

Certainly, I could not become a mod unless the mods had agreed to code of conduct where they encourage appeals and judge them on evidence and the strength of argument. I could also not serve as a mod so long as the current system of tournaments is in place, which I have explained at great length has two problems, firstly of anti-climactic "dodge 4th place" finals, and secondly of disproportionately large prizes for a few winners, which is damaging the meaningfulness of the points system. I have even explained how they are the reason for a stagnant top ten.

If I were a mod these things would remain top of my agenda, and I see no reason I need to be a mod to get action on them. Indeed being a mod I would likely be encouraged to tow the party line and stop speaking out on these issues, hence I believe I would be of less benefit to GM as a mod than a standard player, at the moment.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:05 pm
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aussie
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
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Location: Australia

Post subject: Reply with quote

you dont get it crabbs

if someone posts a complaint about a cheat trade , mods then have to go through the game logs and try to find the specific game in question.

if by chance the person posting complaint has not detailed the game correctly then it takes some time to find it (.it is a very tedious job)

a game which is just one of mabye 20-50 depends when the mod checks the compalint. it is not just a simple case of opening up and going straight to what you want


re. appeals

most bans are for repeatedly making cheat trades or swearing, what is there to appeal about? black and white decision in my opinion


and by the way it is annoying to come to the forum and see you complaining all the time crabbs. sstop trying to change things to your way,

gm functioned long before you came and will continue to function long after you leave
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:39 pm
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MrCrabbs
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aussie wrote:
most bans are for repeatedly making cheat trades or swearing, what is there to appeal about? black and white decision in my opinion


If you can't imagine, or don't remember the many cases where there has been controversy over a cheat trade decision, then it seems talking to you is a bit of a waste of time.

So, you can be a nodding dog, who calls for ever more extreme and totalitarian rule at GM, and I'll actually think and discuss, and we can just ignore each other, how's that?

PS: You may have been here longer than me but there's only so much value I can attach to the opinion of a player who plays for 5 years and stilll lacks any skill whatsoever. Your endless defeats are not, repeat not, the result of some monumental streak of bad luck.

PPS: You are a primary school teacher. Please use capital letters at the start of your sentences.

Love,

Crabbs
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:39 pm
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aussie
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 1457
Location: Australia

Post subject: Reply with quote

ever since you have returned to the game all you have done is moan and ***** wanting people to run things run your way

so accept that fact that other people can run things without your directions


ps. i understand crabbs that you are a university drop out
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:56 pm
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Yiles
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Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Posts: 441

Post subject: Reply with quote

This is better than the soap operas...


~running to the kitchen for popcorn and a drink... BRB~
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:32 pm
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MrCrabbs
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I'm not a uni drop out actually. Not yet Razz

I am actually at quite a good university. We use capital letters and EVERYTHING!
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:34 pm
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palabra
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Joined: 05 Feb 2009
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Post subject: Reply with quote

enough child's play. insults don't get us anywhere.

the simple fact is: handling cheat trades is a hard, time-consuming job, as has already been stated by helen and maggy.

my opinion is that there are VERY few people out there who would be willing to commit sufficient time to GM to take care of complaints. as is, it is extremely difficult; if we do not have some sort of policy on moaning, it could springboard into a situation in which every single decision is moaned about, including the ridiculously obvious displays of cheating.

trace is an amazing mod who has committed a tremendous amount of time every single day to GM. she holds no vendettas against any players, and she has been fair and unbiased in her decisions. that does not mean that she is perfect, but she set a good example. now, because she is so discouraged, she feels like she can no longer do her job.

is this what we want? do we want to make the requirements of being a mod so difficult that no one can do them? what happens after that? will we embrace anarchy because mods are too hard to come by, or will we go through mod after mod after mod who becomes ultra discouraged?

i think that these thoughts must be considered. let us not expect unreasonable things, because those expectations have the potential to destroy the good things that we have here.

i believe that we must implement some sort of anti-moaning policy. questioning a cheat-trade decision is fine, as long as it a legitimate request that is done with tact. if we cannot say yes to that restriction, we may not have anyone willing to step up to the job we have assigned to mods.
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Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:39 pm
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MrCrabbs
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That is not unreasonable at all. But I have said before that I think it is mods having the unrealistic expectation that players will not complain and will passively accept a decision they might have good reason to disagree with, that has caused this disappointment.

You cannot have a one-sided deal, where players have no right to disagree but are obliged not to "moan". But it you are talking about a 2-way deal where mods agree to listen and change their rulings where appropriate, and players agree to only disagree in a cool-headed and respectful way that works and all players would surely support it.
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