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Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:12 am
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MrCrabbs
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Post subject: Sidetracked Reply with quote

Inspired by Magflag's idea of a 2p ladder, I decided to experiment with a similar league for 5 player games.

Imagine a league where everyone in the league had to play a 5p with every possible combination of other players in the league.

To illustrate, imaginea 6-person league. If all the possible 5p games involving those 6 people were played, there would be 6 games. In each of the games, one of the players would not be playing, and once all 6 games were played, everyone would have played every combination of everyone else.

Depending on where a player finishes in any given game, they would get the following number of league points for that game:

5th place - 0 points
4th place - 3 points
3rd place - 6 points
2nd place - 8 points
1st place - 13 points

I will explain why these points in a later post. They are based on Kreso's relative weighting of losses and gains in a 5p game.

I think I have worked out that:

A league of 5 players would take 1 game (obviously)
A league of 6 players would take 6 games
A league of 7 players would take 21 games
A league of 8 players would take 56 games
A league of 9 people would take a whopping 126 games

So, does anyone fancy a 6 or 7 player league to start with?


Last edited by MrCrabbs on Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:32 pm
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MrCrabbs
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Another overwhelming response. No wonder GM is inundated with fresh ideas, and free thinkers. Perhaps it is because of our liberal government?
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:53 pm
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CYN
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Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Post subject: GEEZ GIVE TIME FOR RESPONSES Reply with quote

I would be interested but you said in another section goodbye?
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:56 pm
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MrCrabbs
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Feel free to fly with the idea. I think there is enough info there to try it.

Yeah I am off. When I was in Bill's good books I tried to persuade him of the need to promote debate and allow dissent on forum. Now I do not think I am in his good books any longer, and I stand no chance of persuading him. I fear power will destroy Bill, and Bill will destroy GM, or at best bring it to its knees once more.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:11 am
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MrCrabbs
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I'll pop back in the summer most likely and see if GM has picked up, and if the forum is once again a place you can state your mind. But the current system of "Bill is the law" is not one that is good for Bill, for players or for GM.

We need codified laws on forum use, like we have for in-game cheats. A head honcho, able to do as he pleases, does not work for GM. A rule against questioning mods decisions, does not work for GM. And it turns nice people into monster mods. Husky has shown it, Bill has shown it. GM has no enemies that require such draconian policing as we have.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:30 am
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CYN
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Post subject: Sorry to see you go Reply with quote

Truly sorry to see you go. I am hoping you come back after you have had time to heal your bad feelings against bill and the game.
There has to be someone in charge or it would be mass mayhem. Bill is human and he makes the best judgement that he feels is right. Does everyone always agree with the one in charge? no. However you must show him respect.
I do not think he has overstepped his bounds. As for not being able to state your thoughts, opinions or griefs in the forum, you can. BUT to go on and on and on about something is NOT good for the forum and does get irritating.
Anyone may ask a mod to explain their ruling but to argue their decision continuously or over and over isnt appropriate. I am not referring to just you in this. Many have been doing it lately.
As for your views of the game and how it should be played, you are entitled to your views HOWEVER, others have other views and are free to play as they see fit as long as they follow the rules. Just because you see it as their best choice, they may not see it that way. Again, to each their own and to push your way onto others is wrong. Play your way and let them play theirs. As long as you are both within the boundaries of the rules then it will be fine. When the boundaries are crossed in someones opinion it is for the mods to decide. Will we make mistakes and bad judgements in some opinions sometimes...most likely. But more than not the decisions are made to the best of our view of the fairness of the game.
IMO, everyone needs to lighten up. This is a game for ENTERTAINMENT and Challenge...if everyone played one way it wouldnt be much of a challenge or entertaining.
Again, i hope you get over this. ITS A GAME!!!
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 1:44 am
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Bill2k06
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: Manchester UK

Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyn , crabby is missing vital parts of this out.

i have helped crabby over the last couple of weeks no matter what, and whether it be 3am, or 3pm in afternoon , i have always been there on msn to talk gladly ,

but lets just clear this up ''to not be in my good books'' is a load of shite.
i havent done anything nor have i said anything to make him think otherwise.

i was having my ear chewed off about tournament prizes ALL afternoon, and so was Trace, (if she will kindly put here just to confirm it would be nice) and i accepted all of crabby's proposal about new systems of working out the points given in tournaments, and i answered his last message with '' without working it out to the % i am pretty close with my calculation, and i believe my way of tourny prizes is the best its ever been''

now i ask you crabby? would you be so humble and meak if you had won the tournament?? i answer NO YOU WOULD NOT.

Also id like to add, that NOONE in the game has a problem with the way the tournament is run, APART FROM YOU, so what is the problem ??

i listened to you for4hrs in total today rambling on about the tourny and other GM issues, and im the one who offers my time for free.
Trace had you going on at her on msn for about 2 hrs that i know of???

so i ask again , WHO HAS THE PROBLEM ???

as for the game being a dictatorship , that is utter shite, or old players would not be coming back at my request(yes i email every player and i DID ask old players to reurn)

now as for your last message you sent me on msn?? i told you i was going for a bath, and i did, and because i was so relaxed afterwards i could not be bothered having a debate with you about something we had previously gone over for the previous 4 hrs.
and THAT is the only reason i did not answer you, hence the question.......... Crabbs, have you been drinking. if it not a drink related problem , then i must say you have ADHD as you are too persistent and repetitive to be a player of a 100% fully functioning mind and soul ..

anyway , ive said my part,

lets leave this wide open for the community to voice their opinions, as this IS NOT a dictatorship, and id love to know if people would like me to leave again ? because im certain the answer will be no. but im open to offers.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:20 am
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trace567
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I have spoken a lot to crabbs since the tournament, both on Sunday and today. Really things were just going round and round in circles.

Nobody else has complained to me about the tournament, and I am around a fair bit.

I am not saying all crabbs idea's are no good, but GM cannot, nor should it be altered all at the request of one player. The whole tournament should not be altered to please the player who came 4th.

I am all for freedom of speech, but there's a difference between airing your thoughts, to ramming them down people's throats.

Sorry but I start to switch off mentally, when being moaned at over how GM is, or what it should be, when it is repeated and repeated. All moderator's are working hard to try and improve GM as a whole. We all give up time for this place for love, not money (as we are not paid).
Nobody is perfect, I certainly am not.

I think you need to really calm down crabbs.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:33 am
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MrCrabbs
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This is all I want. A debate on forum, about GM. Discuss, and when the next problem arises, discuss again. On this one you can decide I was wrong. But all I have had since yesterday from the mods I have spoken to, is their urging me to button up.

They insist that no discussion of any value occurs on forum or in game, in the name of an easy life. Those mods I have spoken to prefer to put it all down to a convenient "Crabbs is pissed off" explanation, and dismiss each and every individual point.

I pointed out to Bill that the points system as it was in Sunday's tournament meant that 2nd and 3rd were basically equal, and rational players would simply play to avoid last place at all costs. Gambling for 1st was a no-no under that system. Is that what we want from a tournament, a game of avoiding last?

I proposed a points system to Bill, which I calculated on Kreso's usual points division for a 4p game. If Bill was listening at all he will have noted down that system. It would make a 4p tournament final a far more competitive affair, with the usual jostling for 1st place you see in a normal 4p. But Bill was mostly interested in defending his own points system, and Trace acted dumb like she couldn't understand.

Debate this. Bill, if you still have it, post my suggested tourny points system for players to consider.

And everyone, do not stop. When a player, including a new player, raises an issue, do not treat his or her input as meaningless. When a mod is wrong, say so. And for everyone's sake, mods, get off your high horses and start to treat players as your equals. Coz under the current system, saying a mod is wrong, and saying why (as I did to Bill about the tournament start time for example) seems to always carry an element of risk. It should not be this way.

To Bill: I talked to you for 5 mins at about 15:10, and 25 mins at about 22:00. As I told you earlier, I hadn't drunk a drop, and as I also said earlier, if you drink so much and so often that you assume everyone else is also drinking 24/7, you know you have a habit.

This is not about me not being able to persuade you of my points in private, you have usually listened when I did that. This is about the fact that to get anything done at GM, you need to have Bill on MSN. This is about the fact that the forum, which should be for public discussion, has ceased to function due to censorship.

Please do not make this about whether GM should continue as it is or you should quit. Instead this should be about whether you need to move from a role as King to one of Chairman. You need to be leading discussion, not announcing decisions made behind the scenes. Like I have said before, GM has no enemies you need to hide away from in this way.

To Trace: My words for you are a little harsher. You say things were going round and round in circles. Is that perhaps because for each and every suggestion I made, you said I should calm down and shut up? There was no circular thinking coming from me, only you. I was not short of new suggestions. And there were CERTAINLY no shortage of problems with the tournament on Sunday - in your words it "didn't go to plan". I would add to that, that the plan was a bad one.

"Noone else has a problem with the tournie except Crabbs." You are telling me noone else mids that it started an hour early, or that the winning player actually got knockedout in the first round and was allowed back in, unlike 10 out of the 12 other losing players from the first round? You are telling me that everyone else thinks a system where there is bugger all difference between the points first and second get, 30k each, but 4th gets nothing, is a good system?

If you believe these things, you are sufficiently blinkered that you will just have to wait and learn from the next 6 tournaments to see the points that, were your eyes open, you would have just read me explaining.

You said that you are worried players will be put off from tournies in future if the problems with it were made public. I said that if the problems with this tourny were not ironed out, players would be justified in avoiding the tourny. And you said yourself there were PLENTY of problems with the tourny - but what you say in private and what you say in public are two very different things. Maybe more public discussion on forum, and less of the old hush-hush, would get you used to being called out on bullshit. Problems with the tournie? Depends, are you asking me privately or publicly? It's shameful.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:38 am
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Magflag12
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Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Crabbs, I appreciate the quote, I will take it to heart.

I am not going to pick sides, (considering the risk of splinters), because I am having a hard time determining who was right because I was not there in the situation.

Crabbs, I see your dilema here, and I have felt a similar way at times. in regards to advocating change. I mean for example, when I posted my thread about getting mods to come up with a consistent measurement of cheat trades for us to go by, all I got was this debate (mostly between you and I) that talked about what was more important: Mod Consistency or Measurable Law.

I will be honest that I expected the community to immediately agree, and hopefully influence the mods to work together to complete a goal. I am not saying that because the community did not advocate change that it is their faults for no change occurring, I realize that after my long winded message that the mods should have been able to realize the importance of BOTH our concerns we debated, and seeked to do something about it.

I will say that if non-mods are going to want to see change that they are going to have to start speaking up about it as a whole and not just little bits and pieces here and there. Crabbs you have always been advocating change, mostly for the better, but few others have followed your suit. Perhaps you should consider the problem of hesitant revolutionaries to go along with resistant modship if you catch what I am saying, and I hope you do. I mean I watched the Motorcycle Diaries today (great movie) and the change that 'Che' was advocating was in good nature, but it would have never been accompalished without a mass of people not only AGREEING with him, but FOLLOWING suit of 'Che'.

As far as mods go, I am not saying that we have been wrong all the time in the past, but certainly we have all made mistakes. The important thing is that we are not hesitant to correct the mistakes that are made because our pride blocks us. I am guilty of this in several issues and I will make them loud and clear if you all want me to. It is time to start listening to disputes with an open mind, and be hesitant to write something off as rebellious, just because it goes against a decision has been made.

Overall, Crabbs is making a good point here. If we can let the public know that we will listen to their ideas and arguments AS LONG AS THEY ARE CIVIL AND RESPECTFUL, then we are a lot more likely to get complaints and ideas that are indeed civil.

Learn what crabbs is trying to push for, and forget about the whole "Crabbs got pissed off because of the tournament" issue, that is only a small peice of evidence for a greater problem's existence.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:45 am
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Bill2k06
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Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Posts: 2675
Location: Manchester UK

Post subject: Reply with quote

i do not hide nothing from the forum nor do i hide from the community,
i agree, crabbs, that anyone can talk to me on any leevl they want on msn, as that is then personal and between me and them, but on the forum there is a code to adhere to , and i heard a player say something to me tonight in the lobby when i asked them how come i dont see them on forum too much , their answer was :-
'' i only use the forum to complain about other players in games and to help keep the game clean''

now bare that thought in mind, i actually agree that probably 80% of the community cannot be bothered coming here, as there is only probably 20% that eat/sleep/ live for the game such as myself, trace, yourself, magflag,palabra, and a few others,
the rest are here to lay the game, and report if they need to , and that i cannot , no matter what i do or anyone else does, will change their thoughts,,
these players may have an hour a day and so choose to play 2 games instead of 1 game and then 30minutes writing on the forum, i respect that.

as for the tourny points system, i still defend my view that the system i use actually works out better , than kreso's forumale or even the amount that described in msn crabbs, the reason i defend mine, as i told you , normal tournaments will actually be given less points, and it was only this tournament that i gave extra points to , as an incentive to get players back playing in the tournaments.

i dont act like king, nor dictator of this game, i am just the highest person anyone can speak to, and i encourage anyone to challenge anything said or done by any moderator here, as that is part of MY job to oversee the other mods , and so i am here for the mods and players to talk to about anything.

yes i agree, there is noone higher than me, and that maybe makes you put me as a godlike figure that is unremoveable, but fear not i am not unremoveable and one foot out of line and i am gone just like the rest, just whoever challenges me i hope they are right in their compliaint as i dont like having to justify myself if i am right , if i am wrong i have on many occasions appologised for my actions etc.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:10 pm
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trace567
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MrCrabbs wrote:

To Trace: My words for you are a little harsher. You say things were going round and round in circles. Is that perhaps because for each and every suggestion I made, you said I should calm down and shut up? There was no circular thinking coming from me, only you. I was not short of new suggestions. And there were CERTAINLY no shortage of problems with the tournament on Sunday - in your words it "didn't go to plan". I would add to that, that the plan was a bad one.

"Noone else has a problem with the tournie except Crabbs." You are telling me noone else mids that it started an hour early, or that the winning player actually got knockedout in the first round and was allowed back in, unlike 10 out of the 12 other losing players from the first round? You are telling me that everyone else thinks a system where there is bugger all difference between the points first and second get, 30k each, but 4th gets nothing, is a good system?

If you believe these things, you are sufficiently blinkered that you will just have to wait and learn from the next 6 tournaments to see the points that, were your eyes open, you would have just read me explaining.

You said that you are worried players will be put off from tournies in future if the problems with it were made public. I said that if the problems with this tourny were not ironed out, players would be justified in avoiding the tourny. And you said yourself there were PLENTY of problems with the tourny - but what you say in private and what you say in public are two very different things. Maybe more public discussion on forum, and less of the old hush-hush, would get you used to being called out on bullshit. Problems with the tournie? Depends, are you asking me privately or publicly? It's shameful.


Before I start can I just say that on Sunday I set my alarm (2 to be precise) for 12pm to be sure I was up for the tournament. I logged straight onto GM so I was ready for the tournament. I discovered that some players were confused over the time change. I then tried looking for people online on msn and facebook. You were not showing online according to msn.
I didn't get off of GM till 8pm. I was around long after the tournament ended speaking to you, and trying to keep an eye on things knowing you were very annoyed and I saw potential trouble.
My b/f got very angry with me for it (but that's my issue nobody else's). By 8pm I still had eaten nothing that day.

You had upset ingeras considerably with your post implying teaming. Plus matthew obviously was offended by what you said about him, as for sim I expect the same.

I tried along with palabra to speak to you on Sunday, trying very hard to get you to calm down and apologize for having criticized the 3 who won.

Then ever since you have not dropped the subject, or even calmed down enough to hear that you at times were talking to the wrong person (me, about something I can't just change). At no point have you come up for air and realised what a bad sportsman you have come across as by slating every aspect of the tournament and the 3 winners.

I told you that we know things did not go as intended, I also told you that we can learn by mistakes.

To be honest I really don't believe you would be arguing if you'd come 1st and won lots of lovely points. Why would you? Quite frankly your pissed off at coming 4th, and want to blame the system for your not winning.

I truly have not been moaned at by other players like I have been from you. Just because I have a mod sign, doesn't mean I can up heave GM at your request.

I am all for problems being noted, and where necessary alterations made for the future.

Finally, yes you moaning and attacking the 3 players who came above you in the tournament. Criticising every single aspect of it, I do believe could be detrimental to future tournaments. Would you want to enter, if by coming 1st-3rd you were going to get accused of this and that? Some people aren't as interested in points, and play for the fun and take part in the tournament for personal challenge.

I'm really very angry now. The amount of time I spent listening to your gripes, and suggestions and because I say I don't really understand your suggestion and that it seems complicated, well sorry for being stupid, and for also having had other people on messenger and keeping an eye on the lobby all at once. I only have one brain, and some times it gets tired.
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Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:21 pm
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MrCrabbs
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trace567 wrote:
Before I start can I just say that on Sunday I set my alarm (2 to be precise) for 12pm to be sure I was up for the tournament. I logged straight onto GM so I was ready for the tournament. I discovered that some players were confused over the time change. I then tried looking for people online on msn and facebook. You were not showing online according to msn.


I hadn't logged in yet. It had been clearly stated by Bill that the tournament started at 1pm GMT, AND, that this was FORUM TIME. I knew when the tournament was meant to start, if noone else did. And I had gone to the trouble of mailing Bill the day before to make sure there was no confusion. I was, apparently, ignored.

About me talking to you about things you are powerless to do anything about, my take is that you are one of these annoying "jobsworths" who will only discuss things in the remit of their own job description. My every effort to discuss anything with you, just to get an opinion, met with a brick wall of ignorance.

There is a very simple point here trace, either allow people to make suggestions publicly, rather than silencing them (as you have been doing with this line that it is all just because I got 4th), or listen to them effectively in private. Give people nowhere to spealk their mind, and the result is they get angry, and events boil over. I have been trying to discuss things for future tournments, but you will only look backwards, and insist that I have no right to an opinion because I was the sucker who got 4th. Only those who gained from the tournament set up, or were unaffected by it, get a say, in your tiny mind. You don't consider for a moment that those who benefitted are inclined to stand by the points system, but you emphasize in your every utterance that because I lost out, I must necessarily be looking at this through shit-tinted lenses.

trace567 wrote:
I tried along with palabra to speak to you on Sunday, trying very hard to get you to calm down and apologize for having criticized the 3 who won.


That is ALL you have been doing trace, trying to get me to a) shut up and b) apologise. If you would consider c) actually listening, you might have found that you and I got considerably less angry.

About my suggested points allocation for future tournaments, it will be posted in a new thread. I encourage Bill to post his there too, so that, like mature adults (and intelligent children for the younger players), we can discuss how they each are likely to affect the way FUTURE tournament finals are played. I think it will be clear that the points system that was used on this occasion, could be given the name of "pass the bomb", since the overriding incentive of every player is simply to avoid 4th. The structure of points is one that punishes risk-taking to go for 1st.

trace567 wrote:
I also told you that we can learn by mistakes.
Let's try that now. Will you deign to give a view here on forum, or still insist that since Bill has the final say, you couldn't possibly venture an opinion?
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